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fatassparty
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco

Speaker of the house saying not to rebuild NOLA

A few republicans in congress say we shouldn't rebuild new orleans. That's fucked up.

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Old Post 09-01-2005 04:27 PM
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BigC
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Feb 2005
Location:

Fuck Dennis Hastert, fuck all these motherfuckers.


House Speaker: Rebuilding N.O. doesn't make sense

Thursday, 2:55 p.m.

By Bill Walsh
Washington bureau

WASHINGTON - House Speaker Dennis Hastert dropped a bombshell on flood-ravaged New Orleans on Thursday by suggesting that it isn’t sensible to rebuild the city.

"It doesn't make sense to me," Hastert told the Daily Herald in suburban Chicago in editions published today. "And it's a question that certainly we should ask."

Hastert's comments came as Congress cut short its summer recess and raced back to Washington to take up an emergency aid package expected to be $10 billion or more. Details of the legislation are still emerging, but it is expected to target critical items such as buses to evacuate the city, reinforcing existing flood protection and providing food and shelter for a growing population of refugees.

The Illinois Republican’s comments drew an immediate rebuke from Louisiana officials.

“That’s like saying we should shut down Los Angeles because it’s built in an earthquake zone,” former Sen. John Breaux, D-La., said. “Or like saying that after the Great Chicago fire of 1871, the U.S. government should have just abandoned the city.”

Hastert said that he supports an emergency bailout, but raised questions about a long-term rebuilding effort. As the most powerful voice in the Republican-controlled House, Hastert is in a position to block any legislation that he opposes.

"We help replace, we help relieve disaster," Hastert said. "But I think federal insurance and everything that goes along with it... we ought to take a second look at that."

The speaker’s comments were in stark contrast to those delivered by President Bush during an appearance this morning on ABC’s “Good Morning America.”

“I want the people of New Orleans to know that after rescuing them and stabilizing the situation, there will be plans in place to help this great city get back on its feet,” Bush said. “There is no doubt in my mind that New Orleans is going to rise up again as a great city.”

Insurance industry executives estimated that claims from the storm could range up to $19 billion. Rebuilding the city, which is more than 80 percent submerged, could cost tens of billions of dollars more, experts projected.

Hastert questioned the wisdom of rebuilding a city below sea level that will continue to be in the path of powerful hurricanes.

"You know we build Los Angeles and San Francisco on top of earthquake issures and they rebuild, too. Stubbornness," he said.

Hastert wasn't the only one questioning the rebuilding of New Orleans. The Waterbury, Conn., Republican-American newspaper wrote an editorial Wednesday entitled, "Is New Orleans worth reclaiming?"

"Americans' hearts go out to the people in Katrina's path," it said. "But if the people of New Orleans and other low-lying areas insist on living in harm's way, they ought to accept responsibility for what happens to them and their property."

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Old Post 09-01-2005 04:30 PM
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TRTC
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Jun 2003
Location:

fuck that guy up the asshole with a cattle prod.


i'll be there to help rebuild

as winton marsailes said "new orleans is like the heart and soul of the country, you may have never gotten in touch with it, but if you have it changed your life"

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Old Post 09-01-2005 04:32 PM
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Cypher
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: reborn slacker

i personally think we should bomb whats left, and make a new beginning, start with a new port, and go from there. itll take time, but moneywise, it would probly be cheaper to restart, than to rebuild.

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Old Post 09-01-2005 04:33 PM
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Kryogenocide
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Nu york

that is fucked up, but geology/hydrology is not on our side. . the river wants to mander and jump its banks, the lake will flood again and again unless we do something like the three gorges damn and change/destroy the geology of the whole region...



tough prospects...huge engineering problem...

must rebuild but how?

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Old Post 09-01-2005 04:35 PM
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berryjona
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

i guess ppl shouldn't live in earthquake-prone california, wildfire-prone arizona or tornado-prone oklahoma, either.



yeah, at first glance living below c level seems dumb, but if you consider the fact that historic miss. river projects basically caused these problems, combined with the fact that THIS WHOLE SHIT COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED IF PPLE HAD GIVEN A FUCK AND FUNDED FLOOD PROTECTION, it seems way assinine to just give up on rebuilding the entire city. with proper funding and planning, none of this shit would have happened.

yeah, 20/20.

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Old Post 09-01-2005 04:36 PM
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Tony Danza
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Houston

rebuilding a city in this country shouldn't even be questioned.

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Old Post 09-01-2005 04:38 PM
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BigC
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Feb 2005
Location:

It's easy to say stupid shit like this when you're from fucking Illinois. Land locked motherfucker.

No fucking empathy at all.

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Old Post 09-01-2005 04:38 PM
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TRTC
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Jun 2003
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Tony Danza
rebuilding a city in this country shouldn't even be questioned.

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Old Post 09-01-2005 04:40 PM
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Kryogenocide
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Nu york

well, given the way things are :

1. there will be massive changes in the way the levees and canals are built & maintained

2. funding will have to be made to change the coast line/ prevent erosion

3. New Orleans will be better bigger stronger and doper. So fuck the republican shit eating bastards.

4. new building codes.

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Old Post 09-01-2005 04:42 PM
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berryjona
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

Thumbs up

quote:
Originally posted by Kryogenocide
well, given the way things are :

1. there will be massive changes in the way the levees and canals are built & maintained

2. funding will have to be made to change the coast line/ prevent erosion



yeah, because it would have been much more expensive to do it before the tragedy.

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Old Post 09-01-2005 04:46 PM
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AshleyW
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Dover, Delaware with the Amish!

Exactly. If they would've fixed it appropriately before this, we wouldnt be in this situation. I think its COMPLETELY assinine to say lets go to IRAQ and rebuild, etc. etc. but not in good ole USA! This makes me very angry. VERY.

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Old Post 09-01-2005 04:53 PM
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doloreshaze
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Under a rock. But it's a nice rock.

I am fucking ashamed that he is a "representative" of my home state. How inhumane.

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Old Post 09-01-2005 04:55 PM
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TRTC
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Jun 2003
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by AshleyW
Exactly. If they would've fixed it appropriately before this, we wouldnt be in this situation. I think its COMPLETELY assinine to say lets go to IRAQ and rebuild, etc. etc. but not in good ole USA! This makes me very angry. VERY.



couldn't say it better than that

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Old Post 09-01-2005 04:55 PM
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dlayne76
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: somewhere else...

high fives to all the forum republicans!!!

YAY!!

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Old Post 09-01-2005 04:55 PM
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BigC
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Feb 2005
Location:

Call that fucker and tell him what you think:

Contact Congressman J. Dennis HastertD.C. Office
235 Cannon House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515

Phone: 202-225-2976
Fax: 202-225-0697

Batavia District Office
27 North River Street
Batavia, IL 60510

Phone: 630-406-1114
Fax: 630-406-1808

Dixon Regional Office
119 W. First Street
Dixon, IL 61021

Phone: 815-288-0680
Fax: 815-288-0743

Office Hours
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday
9 AM – 4 PM

Geneseo Regional Office
137 South State Street, Suite 336
Geneseo, IL 61254

Phone: 309-944-3558

Office Hours
Thursday
9 AM – 3 PM

Continue to spotlight text or go to accessible navigation

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Old Post 09-01-2005 05:11 PM
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warmack
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Lafayette

quote:
Originally posted by TRTC

as winton marsailes said "new orleans is like the heart and soul of the country, you may have never gotten in touch with it, but if you have it changed your life"

amen

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Old Post 09-01-2005 05:22 PM
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Silent Dent
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Oct 2002
Location: Your moms bed room

just to play the devils advocate here.

Has L.A. ever had 80% of the city destroyed from a earthquake?

Has wildfires ever destroyed 80% of the livable area?


Someone said in a post earlier that they had little pitty for the people who didn't leave N.O. before the storm. Now people are all pissy because some guy in Illinois says he dosen't feel pity for the people who choose to live in N.O.



I for one love N.O. I spent alot of my childhood/teen years there. But I'm not sure that N.O. will ever be what it was no matter how much taxpayer dollars you throw at it.

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Old Post 09-01-2005 05:52 PM
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MiNTyOnE
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: My Doctor said "MYLANTA!"

quote:
Originally posted by Silent Dent
just to play the devils advocate here.

Has L.A. ever had 80% of the city destroyed from a earthquake?

Has wildfires ever destroyed 80% of the livable area?


Someone said in a post earlier that they had little pitty for the people who didn't leave N.O. before the storm. Now people are all pissy because some guy in Illinois says he dosen't feel pity for the people who choose to live in N.O.



I for one love N.O. I spent alot of my childhood/teen years there. But I'm not sure that N.O. will ever be what it was no matter how much taxpayer dollars you throw at it.



not L.A but San Fran has in 1906 and Chicago burned to the ground in 1857(?)

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Old Post 09-01-2005 06:00 PM
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fatassparty
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco

The city wasn't that bad off before the levee broke, which was made for a Cat 3 hurricaine.

THE CITY IS WORTH REBUILDING!!! There is no place like it on earth. The intelligence is there to prevent flooding again, we just need the money. With help from other countries, and americans pouring their hearts and pocket books out to us the city will be thriving again better than it ever was. Maybe we should think of this as somewhat of a blessing to clean up the trash that the city has started to become. I will be back in New Orleans. I will die in New Orleans. Period.

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Old Post 09-01-2005 06:32 PM
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psychedevil
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Hattiesburg, MS

What the Speaker of the House said has burned a mark in my brain as some of the worst fucking stupidity I've ever heard come out of a politicians mouth. And I don't give a damn if he apologized for saying it or not.

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Old Post 09-06-2005 04:42 PM
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DrGonzo
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: in exile

i'm curious if this is the same guy who was for cutting our levee budgets because the logistics of getting hit by a major hurricane were too small. now he's saying that nola may not be worth building because it lays in the probable path of a hurricane?
isn't that like post hoc logic?
-wesley

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Old Post 09-06-2005 06:54 PM
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xmuzik
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Nov 2003
Location: The Streets Of A New World Order

i hope someone shoots him in his spine & he's so crippled that he has to live in a wheel chair shitting his pants & drooling on himself because he's so paralyzed he can't even speak

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Old Post 09-06-2005 07:45 PM
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saturnalia
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: south florida

Hastert the Bastard

What a tool

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Old Post 09-06-2005 07:48 PM
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LordGalaxis
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Lafayette at the Tertiary Extension of the Podunk Palookaville

quote:
Originally posted by Kryogenocide
that is fucked up, but geology/hydrology is not on our side. . the river wants to mander and jump its banks, the lake will flood again and again unless we do something like the three gorges damn and change/destroy the geology of the whole region...



tough prospects...huge engineering problem...

must rebuild but how?



Nahhhhh na na.

The mississippi wants to spill it's banks during the rainy seasons yes. But if it's going to change course, it's either going to bust through St. Bernard.....or it's going to go down the Atchafalaya. It's all about the carrying capacity of the sediment load suspended in the river. As a moving body of water with suspended silt goes, it wants the shortest relief valve to the ocean. It's kinda like having to take a piss that you've held in a movie so long it's given you cramps. Do you go to the first bathroom, or the one on the other side of the theater?

Now, All we gotta do to control the hydrology issues is turn New Orleans East and most of St. Bernard, into a lake to river to gulf floodplain outlet. We already have the Bonnet Carre' spillway for river increases. Now we need a more massive lake to gulf outlet for this type o thing, as the Rigolets just don't cut it.

Also, it might be prudent, that the city get built into a series of 'polders' that the dutch would do. compartmentalizing different sectors of the city so that no one breach would flood all.

I just read a book called "Unnatural Metropolis, Wresting New Orleans from Nature" by Joel Colten, and he discusses in boring detail, how New Orleans has never had a land use planning methodology to control flooding problems, and instead has solely focused on the levee and dike system paid for by the US Government.
While the latter is still required, the former must become a key component of the restoration and expansion of say, Bayou Sauvage (which probably only happened due to the real estate market taking a crap on itself after all the oil jobs dried up in the 80's.

I just hope that in the rebuilding to come, that NOLA keeps some grittiness, and becomes a city in it's heyday, filled with 600 miles of streetcar track, and commuter rail, and light rail to the airport and across the lake in three directions and all that schnazz. I mean, if the Feds drop fiddy billion g's on the area, less hope we get something good with all that. (plus while they're at it, hook that crap up to EBR)

Being that the feds are still ghey, they'll probably just want to come back and elevate all the freeways. Idiots.

Last, the city's going to have to set up a historic reincarnation commission to oversee a set of historic architectural criteria, otherwise, the place is going to choke itself on cul-de-sacs, snout houses, ranch houses, and North Dallas Specials (aka the House on Steroids), and Maximum Security Educational Incarceration Institutions lined with razor wire to keep the kids safe. In other words, they'd have nola looking like 2/3rd pavement for parking lots 1/3rd structures.

I think we're intelligent enough to prevent that.

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Old Post 09-06-2005 08:28 PM
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LordGalaxis
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Lafayette at the Tertiary Extension of the Podunk Palookaville

http://www.kunstler.com/eyesore_200011.html

Check out this pathetic reminder of what had become of Biloxi in recent decades (nevermind the casinos)

here is the before......


and the after....




Maybe they'll return to the old days...

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Old Post 09-06-2005 08:33 PM
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LordGalaxis
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Lafayette at the Tertiary Extension of the Podunk Palookaville

Duplicate, so I deleted it.

Last edited by LordGalaxis on 09-06-2005 at 09:00 PM

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Old Post 09-06-2005 08:58 PM
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LordGalaxis
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Lafayette at the Tertiary Extension of the Podunk Palookaville

quote:
Originally posted by fatassparty
The city wasn't that bad off before the levee broke, which was made for a Cat 3 hurricaine.

THE CITY IS WORTH REBUILDING!!! There is no place like it on earth. The intelligence is there to prevent flooding again, we just need the money. With help from other countries, and americans pouring their hearts and pocket books out to us the city will be thriving again better than it ever was. Maybe we should think of this as somewhat of a blessing to clean up the trash that the city has started to become. I will be back in New Orleans. I will die in New Orleans. Period.



1.) At least in the minimal sense, a lot of the damage that happened was due to not having flood gates at the end of the 17th st canal, or the london for that matter at the lake.
2.) Then it was b/c Dubya and his ravenous hordes of neo-con-artist budget busters had pork gobbled money on bullshit across the USA, but couldn't cough up the regular maintenance dollars for the levee network, and as such with only 5.7 mils appropriated this year, down 90% from five years ago, the Corps had stopped doing regular maintenance since Summer 2K4....plus, the Corps I would be led to understand, couldn't finish the bridge on R.E. LEE after two years, and perhaps they, or the levee board had left a "barge" of some sort tethered, parked to, or drifting in the canal which slammed the concrete wall, and all which nonetheless, the corps inability to do maintenance work meant that section on 17th had subsided and was 4 feet lower in some areas than the otherwise uniform height.

3.) This entire calamity was precipitated by negligence.

4.) When Dubya says it's a time to come together to pick up the pieces and figure out the why later,....well normally, a person would say yes and be forgiving,...but that crakwhore doesn't deserve and should not be allowed to get away with any pass whatsover,....Not after 9/11. He's already proven that he is failure. He was presented with information and warnings, his people, almost all of them in his team, starting with him, dick, or karl did not act with conscience.
Presented this time with info, long in advance, they failed to act in a "preemptive" manner.

5.) when Haley (I'm a reformed oil lobbyist and party hack, who used Karl Rove tactics to prey upon the fears of white Mississippians and conquer based on alienation and division to win the governor's race) Barbour says that he begged and pleaded with people to leave, DON'T Believe him, don't accept his warmth. SHUN HIM. Why the frakk didn't he get on the horn and tell his County Leaders to issue mandatory evac orders???!!!!

6.) when walmart acts like they're concerned with humanity and gives some junk food and water bottles and few million to some relief organizations, thank the workers, scorn the company. They're nothing more than rapists and pillagers as much as any looter. They absorb profits nation and worldwide, concentrate the wealth, screw their workers, encourage them to apply for lowincome government aid, coerce manufacturers to leave the US to make a good at their price, manipulate state and local governments in tax breaks and infrastructure projects to satisfy their facilities, and thus diminish and impoverish the communities they operate in, exporting the acquired capital away, all the while buying meat from factory slaughterhouses which employ undocumented illegal immigrant workers, who don't have to have healthcare, and Soc Sec and the other litany of public trust costs in a developed society, who work in near unregulated cruel environments, which produce meat products from unscrupulous indifferent producers, who lobby to ensure that the USDA doesn't inspect them and don't care if we are sickened by their meat, and then having exported our local economy away, perhaps depriving us all of the money to maintain say the levees, exhibit the nerve to be champions of the estate tax elimination so that their families fortunes will not be taxed at death, fostering to create the Walton Kingdom in Northwest Arkansas, a near class of landed aristocracy.

None of these should expect any trust, ever again from Americans for any reason EVER!!!! And they deserve no deference towards coming together to unite, to repair. These shit effers are going to screw us again with incompetence, indifference and selfishness. Everyone personally affected by this should keep complaining, they deserve no satisfaction in thnking they've ameliorated anyones conditions, because they were complicit in allowing the suffering to happen.

Only by keeping the pressure on will we ever be rid of them.

Down with False Republicans and the Pussy Foot Collaborator Democrats!!!

Yes, I'm damn mad right now, and don't wanna take it anymore. Neither should the rest of you.

IP: 70.182.6.231

Old Post 09-06-2005 09:00 PM
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saturnalia
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: south florida

quote:
Originally posted by LordGalaxis
[Down with False Republicans and the Pussy Foot Collaborator Democrats!!!

Yes, I'm damn mad right now, and don't wanna take it anymore. Neither should the rest of you. [/B]


Hey, cool that you are another fan of Eyesore of the Month and a planning person too , are you in school or working somewhere?

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Old Post 09-06-2005 09:06 PM
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LordGalaxis
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Lafayette at the Tertiary Extension of the Podunk Palookaville

quote:
Originally posted by saturnalia
Hey, cool that you are another fan of Eyesore of the Month and a planning person too , are you in school or working somewhere?


Neither...I need to be back in school.
Hmm...seeing as how UNO's Urb Planning is kinda shut down.
South eff ell lay ayy? You know of Mr. Duany?

Everyone else, James Howard Kunstler is da bomb. Ya'll should read his blog, "Cluster F*** Nation"

Btw saturnalia, In Austin, I missed the Opportunity for a picture contribution for Eyesore of the Month. It was a retirement apartment dwelling complex daftly named "The Preserve"

roflmao who tf is so demented as to come up with that? Maybe some sick pervert marketing type with a bad sense of humor.

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Old Post 09-06-2005 09:28 PM
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saturnalia
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: south florida

Galaxis - I got my masters at UNO. Very good school for planning. All the professors I had there were extremely nice. If you can hold out until they reopen I would do it. Univ of Florida and UNC are also good.
The firm I work with has some dealings with Duany and his wife, I haven't run into them yet. I'm pretty new to the area. There's definitely a lot going on here. It's an exciting place to work.

Anyhow, if you have questions about school or whatever, feel free to PM

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Old Post 09-06-2005 09:46 PM
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DoInK
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: the official deoderant of NASCAR

honestly, even a freshman at engineering school could have told you that the flood walls weren't built to sustain prolonged pressure on them.

we need honest to god levees or at least support for the backside of the flood walls.

if we had that, we would have been fine even for this monster storm.
and could you even imagine one bigger than one which takes up the ENTIRE gulf of mexico.

but hey, when the ice caps melt, i imagine nothing will be able to save us.

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Old Post 09-06-2005 11:34 PM
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LordGalaxis
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Lafayette at the Tertiary Extension of the Podunk Palookaville

quote:
Originally posted by DoInK
honestly, even a freshman at engineering school could have told you that the flood walls weren't built to sustain prolonged pressure on them.

we need honest to god levees or at least support for the backside of the flood walls.

if we had that, we would have been fine even for this monster storm.
and could you even imagine one bigger than one which takes up the ENTIRE gulf of mexico.

but hey, when the ice caps melt, i imagine nothing will be able to save us.



Hurricane Gilbert 1988, lowest Atlantic Cyclone atmospheric pressure on record....Katrina wasn't far behind.

The ice caps already are metling. The gulf was probably so damn warm because the gulf-stream was getting f***ed up by all that melt.

We just need to figure out what the Japanese do, they get bitch slapped by multiple typhoons at the same time, playing off each other in the Fukiwara effect.

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Old Post 09-06-2005 11:38 PM
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jimboni
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: the 1/4

quote:
Originally posted by LordGalaxis
You know of Mr. Duany?

James Howard Kunstler is da bomb. Ya'll should read his blog, "Cluster F*** Nation"



i'm a very big fan of andres duany and elizabeth plater-zyberk, as well as their spiritual mentor leon krier; my admiration for them made me catch much shit at tulane school of architecture. and howard kunstler is the shit.

what the news media and most people in other parts of the country misunderstand is that 80% of the city is not destoyed. 80% of the city has standing water; i'm not sure how much, but considerably less counts as destroyed. much of the city is a matter of repair, not reconstruction. the french quarter is 90% intact. most sections of the city under the jurisdiction of the historic district landmarks commission are generally intact, the major exceptions being bywater and holy cross (the lower 9th ward). there are (were) apparatus in place for the preservation of the historic parts of the city: the vieux carre commission and the HDLC. they will be of utmost importance if new orleans is to retain its character and not become camden, new jersey.

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Old Post 09-06-2005 11:39 PM
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LordGalaxis
Disco's Bitch

Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Lafayette at the Tertiary Extension of the Podunk Palookaville

quote:
Originally posted by jimboni
i'm a very big fan of andres duany and elizabeth plater-zyberk, as well as their spiritual mentor leon krier; my admiration for them made me catch much shit at tulane school of architecture. and howard kunstler is the shit.

what the news media and most people in other parts of the country misunderstand is that 80% of the city is not destoyed. 80% of the city has standing water; i'm not sure how much, but considerably less counts as destroyed. much of the city is a matter of repair, not reconstruction. the french quarter is 90% intact. most sections of the city under the jurisdiction of the historic district landmarks commission are generally intact, the major exceptions being bywater and holy cross (the lower 9th ward). there are (were) apparatus in place for the preservation of the historic parts of the city: the vieux carre commission and the HDLC. they will be of utmost importance if new orleans is to retain its character and not become camden, new jersey.


Or ....Port Arthur Texas...... man what an industrial cesspool.
Ya know, Bush probably is going to insist through his panel of "experts in the industry" that we will have to build a new oil-refinery down here, and wherever it is, it will be the biggest in the world, built up fifty feet high, surrounded by anti-terror, anti nuke defense shield weaponry, and the largest in the world at that.
Har, that's my cynics view on it.

ABout the city...I dunno, a lot of houses will be torn down by their owners.
Have you seen the report today of a water sampling expert, who indicated that his sample...(and this presumes he didn't mess it up) was 45,000 times the safe limit of exposure.

That much wood would be unsalvageable, imbued with the funk forever.
BTW, I wonder how the Formoson Termites are doing???
that's been one of my idle thoughts....
and also, where's Bill Jefferson been? I guess the feds have him on "corruption investigation" lockdown.

Also I saw that Alan Drake coughed up the details of Streetcars Desired Everywhere's dealings with the mayor on taking the $10 million left over from Canal Streetcar and dumping into a desire line phase I, that would run up to the tracks.

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Old Post 09-06-2005 11:46 PM
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